In fact, you could probably argue that it’s one of the reasons behind her success. That and never being too embarrassed to talk about cold hard cash with clients. 

Darryl Danielli How did the business come about?

Jacky Sidebottom-Every In the late 1970s, my father [Raymond Every] was a carton rep working for a very large manufacturer. In those days machines took hours to make ready and no one was really interested in anything other than the really big runs, and no one was really interested in the sub-5,000 run, quality market – so he spotted a niche. Brian [Jacky’s then boyfriend, now husband and Glossop managing director] worked for a plastic injection molding toolmaker at the time and I had just failed my ‘A’ levels, so I was left wondering what to do career wise. I was working in the accounts department of a local supermarket, but I didn’t like it – I was an opinionated teenager who didn’t like being told what to do. So Dad started putting a business plan together with Brian and me.

So you wrote a business plan in your teens?

We were so naive it was untrue; it makes me smile in a sad sort of way.

How do you mean?

Well it was done in conjunction with the ‘enterprise for all’ business guarantee scheme that Thatcher introduced. Mum and Dad put their house up as collateral and we got a plan together that the bank signed off. We found a unit and got the money and then on day one, this would have been November 1982, we thought ‘bloody hell this is cold’ – the building had no heating. So of course, the business plan, which had a cashflow forecast based on a penny-by-penny basis was out of the window, we needed heating. We were nearly liquidated on day one. We had also bought a job lot of machines from a dealer for £25,000. Well, you’ve never seen a bigger load of scrap. They were awful. Luckily, Brian was an engineer and he gave them the TLC they needed. Then of course the next thing was the power – they were all three phase machines. I didn’t even know what three-phase was. So the whole factory had to be rewired. So we were £10,000 short from day one.

That must have been a tough introduction to business?

We were absolutely dead in the water. So we had to work very hard that first year; 14-hour days were nothing. Brian’s mum ran the pub across the road, so we would go in to work at 6am, have a chippie lunch and then go to the pub for last orders.

Was it just the three of you?

And my sister Jill. My other sister Vicky [who later joined the business] was still at school and Mum had another job. So we started from zero orders. I’ve still got the order book at home. I think we took £400 in the first month. And then sadly Dad died, out of the blue aged 47 in January 1984. I was 21, Brian was 22... We just threw ourselves into the work. But it quickly became apparent that our bank manager at the time had decided that we were finito. With hindsight I probably would have thought the same, but we had to go for it because otherwise Mum would have lost her house.

So how did you convince the bank manager to support you?

Well, Brian and I used to play a lot of Badminton and the husband of one of the ladies in the club was a senior manager at Barclays, she had a word with him and he had a word with the local manager and we moved from Midland (now part of HSBC)to Barclays. The manager was very much a Captain Mainwaring type, but he was brilliant and gave us the same deal we had at Midland, but most importantly he also gave us the support we needed.

Because running a business at 21 must have been a big challenge?

Well no, because you don’t know any better – you just get on with it. When you’re young, you think you can do anything. I wish I still had that feeling – it’s incredible really. 

Where did it go from there?

It was a long steady, uphill plod really. I can’t say that I really understood business back then. All I knew was that you had to charge as much as you could for stuff going out and pay as little as you could for stuff coming in. That was it; there was no rocket science involved.

Wasn’t it really competitive though?

I think it was, but being a young female sales person got me a lot of sympathy. Once the sympathy vote has gone though, you have to come up with the goods.

Was it tough being a young woman effectively running a business?

I think it was an advantage, being a woman gets you though doors that might not be open to men in the same position. But once you’re sat in front of a buyer then it makes no difference, you have to know what you’re talking about first and foremost.

So how did you end up here then, in your current premises? 

Well, around October 1984 a developer knocked on our door and basically offered us £35,000 to leave. Two young kids... It felt like we had won the pools. But looking back, it was probably one of the main reasons we stayed afloat. The only problem was that we had to be out within six weeks. Trying to find an industrial site that we could move into in six weeks was a challenge, but we found this old mill we’re in now, although it was virtually derelict at the time.

Are any of your customers from the early days still with you?

Yes – our first and major account was Holt Lloyd International, the car accessory firm, and we’ve been lucky enough to have them as a client, in various guises, for 30 years.

Are you quite careful in terms of managing your client mix though?

That can be difficult; when we first started out our eggs were very much in one basket. Which was a big weakness. But since then we have worked hard to make sure that we have a good mix. We’ve got about 200 live customers, some of whom we only hear from every two years, others that we do drops for every other day.

How have you generated growth through over the years?

New business wins, of course, and lately the Packaging Innovations show has been very successful for us. The type of clients we have found there have been small, often start-ups – so out of 10 clients perhaps only half will mature into an order.

But I guess some of the businesses will grow and you can grow with them?

That’s true, but it can go the other way. A few times I’ve backed the wrong horse when I’ve perhaps been a bit too harsh with my credit control and I’ve put a stop on a company that has then gone elsewhere and flourished into a really big customer for someone else.

Your very own Decca/Beatles moments then. Anyone that we would have heard of?

There are a couple that have done quite well lately, let’s just say that. But it’s very, very difficult – it’s your money and the impact if you don’t get paid really hurts. If I lost £50, I would have to have a wake for it. 

What do you base credit control on?

Gut feeling more often than not. I use Creditsafe, which is okay, but they’re dependent on Companies House, so while it’s not always current it gives you a flavour. I will chat to a customer too, because over the years I’ve noticed that in most cases, where a customer is happy to talk money, they will pay you. If they get affronted, insulted or angry – quite often they’re the ones that won’t pay.

So you’re not afraid of asking difficult questions then?

A lot of people are embarrassed about talking about money and I really don’t understand that – money is the blood of any business and it has to keep pumping. I find it incredible that some businesses almost forget about cashflow, or regard it as a secondary consideration.

You’re right, or course, but then perhaps not all companies are fortunate enough to be able to be able to pick and choose their customers?

That’s true, we are. But money is also very close to my heart.

Does credit control fall under your remit as sales director then?

It does, because I’m not very good at letting go – which I’m told is a fault. But I think money is incredibly serious and it amazes me the number of owners that relinquish responsibility of the money. Don’t get me wrong, we all have customers that go through a rocky patch, and we don’t mind helping them along, but that should be a director’s decision. 

It must be difficult though if on one side you’re talking to someone with your sales hat on, but also having to chase up an overdue invoice. That must put a strain on relationships.

It can do, but it has to be done – it’s not unreasonable to expect to be paid, is it?

Fair point. Do you have a network of people that you talk to about problem clients or to check people out?

I have a network of people I trust in the North West. It does amaze me when you compare notes, just how many, shall we say naughty people, there are out there.

What are your future growth plans?

Well, a move to a new site is high on the priorities list, and I’m desperately trying to do another acquisition too.

I was going to ask you about that, because you bought Clowes a few years ago.

That was so good; it was such an adrenalin buzz and just felt like it was meant to be. We knew, sadly, that the old company was struggling in 2009 and when they went bust we tried to negotiate with the administrators, but they had other plans, shall we say – the saviour of print: Saul Loggenberg. So when we knew they were going to go bankrupt again in 2010, we weren’t going to miss out and got very aggressive with the administrator.

Was it the same administrator?

No, but they also had a plan that didn’t involve us. So we got our solicitor to remind them of their obligations, because we were the party pooper to their deal and we were clearly not welcome. The administrators were very difficult, but as soon as they realised that we weren’t going to go away we had our offer accepted.

You took 18 of the staff, was it a challenge merging the two businesses’ cultures.

It was in some ways. In the early days it was very much ‘them and us’ and it probably took six months to make it just ‘us’. I’m passionate about it always being ‘us’ because we have to be one team to really succeed. 

Why did you want Clowes so badly?

I just knew that they would be a really good fit for us and would also deliver growth. We were about £2.5m then and so were they, and because of the proximity, the staff could come here. I just knew it would work. That was all around October 2010 and I’m looking for that rush again. We missed out on one earlier this year.

Are you just focused on distress sales, then? Or on healthy firms too?

Both; they each have plusses and minuses. I don’t profess to be an expert, but when we’ve looked at companies we’ve just looked at their assets and what they can do for us. You can look at a whole load of things, but at the end of the day it’s about the assets, how much it costs and what it can bring to your business. It’s very basic as far as we’re concerned.

But there’s always a risk, especially if you’re TUPEing staff across.

Of course, you have to be cautious; if you get it wrong it can be your downfall. I would never want anything to damage Glossop’s, we’re not interested in a vanity purchase.

Are you looking at something that might get you into new markets?

I don’t think so. We know what we do – and that’s fine for us.

What are you looking to grow the business to then?

I don’t know really, I don’t think like that and set boundaries. I just get bored; I’ve been doing this for 32 years. Not many people would want to do the same job for that amount of time; they might take a career break or retrain, but I don’t have that choice, so I have to make my own excitement.

You do have a choice; you could sell the business and do whatever you wanted.

I suppose. But to be honest I’ve been having too much fun over the past few years and business has been good, and we’ve been investing – the Euclid especially has been fun. That has opened a lot of doors. There’s a lot of negativity in the UK carton market towards change in some ways, but it is changing; technology is changing, clients’ needs are changing – digital is coming whether we like it or not, and I think we’re better off embracing that change when it comes rather than running shy of it. I would like to see Glossop become a fully fledged digital carton company, but only when the technology and the business model are right.

You’re quite fortunate in that, with Brian, you have a sounding board within the business that you can trust implicitly.

That’s true, but I know it can be very, very lonely running a business. Even with the two of us. But that’s one of the things I get out of the BPIF – the camaraderie, support and a sounding board. If you have a situation – anything – if something just isn’t quite right or you think you could do something better, then an organisation like the BPIF gives you that network of people from successful businesses that you have a chat to and ask their view. I find the BPIF a great comfort, because you don’t feel alone. I’m chair of the BPIF’s North West group, so I’m probably biased, but I really don’t understand why more people don’t use the BPIF.

You’ve invested heavily in kit in recent years, how do you evaluate investments? Is it a methodical process or is it gut instinct again?

Instinct. Take the Euclid as an example: we liked what we had heard about it, but before we went to see it we weren’t sure we would buy one. Then, when we saw it in Belgium, we thought ‘wow’, and Brian and me just looked at it and said ‘we’ll have it’. I think we were very conscious that we were losing out on the low-volume end of the carton market, because a commercial printer with a little hand platen can attack those little 2,000 runs. So now we can compete, and it gets us in with the smaller customers who might grow that we were missing out on before.

It’s still a risk though, isn’t it? Buying the first one in the UK? 

I guess, but we knew that, if things all went wrong, we weren’t going to go bust because we had bought it. Not at that price.

Have there been any dark times?

2009 was an incredible shock. We had never really felt a recession before and I found it frightening. If I’m honest I can be a little bit glass-half-empty, but in 2008 when people were talking about the recession, even I thought: ‘what recession?’. January 2009 was great too, but then in February, it was like the phones had been cut off. It took about six months before we realised it wasn’t just us, that everyone was in the same boat – whether they were in cartons or commercial print. We had about five months when turnover was about 40% down, fighting tooth and nail for every order. I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t eat. It didn’t exactly help that we had negotiated to buy our very first brand-new press in late 2008; the finance was in place and so was a big deposit. So the thought of that press arriving – with sod all work to fill it – was terrifying.

Couldn’t you have just cancelled or delayed the press?

It was on a boat from Japan by the time the recession hit us, so we just renegotiated the finance and put a smaller deposit down. By summer 2009 though, it was onwards and upwards.

It must have been a worrying time?

It was, but the darkest time was without doubt the fatality in 2006. [In 2006 a sub-contractor was killed at Glossop Cartons].

That must have been a horrible experience?

It was very black. Of course, we all really felt for the family and friends of the deceased and we wanted to, and did, do everything we could to make sure nothing like that could ever happen again. But it was very difficult dealing with the Health & Safety Executive (HSE). For the two years after the accident happened, we would have happily given up the business. We had a lot of counseling for the staff; I’m sure it still affects a few people even now in some ways.

What do you think you learned from the tragedy?

The HSE works in a different way to virtually every other body you’ll come across, in that you’re assumed to be guilty and have to prove your innocence. We knew there was nothing we could have done to prevent the accident, but someone died and as far as the HSE was concerned someone had to be responsible – we were advised to plead guilty. As a result of what happened though, and what we were put through, I’m very passionate about helping other directors with HSE issues. Not so that they can avoid their responsibilities, but to try and help them understand what’s going to happen, because dealing with the HSE is the kind of nightmare I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. So if I ever hear of something happening to a fellow printer, I try to send a message offering my help, even if it’s just to talk through what happened and offer an understanding ear and support.

You mentioned you’re a glass-half-empty kind of person earlier, are you a worrier by nature too?

Yes, I wish I wasn’t.

But by the sounds of it, you make a decision and then worry about it afterwards, rather than not making a decision because you’re worried about it?

True. Sometimes when I worry I have good ideas too. I still wish I could stop, but I need to be worried about something, I need a fixation. I wish I could relax more, but I know I’m not alone in that. I think a lot of us who run businesses spend so much time worrying about the business or other people that we forget to look after ourselves. Which is wrong. Businesses have all sorts of strategies to look after the staff, but what about the business owner? 

Is business harder than it was a decade ago, say?

I think so; it’s much more competitive.

Does that make it exciting though?

It can do…

…but it would nice if it was a little bit easier?

Yes, but then I would probably worry it was too easy.